Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! A bigger hole is better than a smaller hole and more holes is better than one hole. I read this after selling my XD Tactical in .40 to a friend and then settled on .45 GAP. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. 9mm Vs 45 Has The Marine Corps Settled It? - Concealed Carry Inc Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. Pain is generally physiologically irrelevant, but where present often just makes motivated targets angry and thus, more motivated. The victim died immediately. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. If a 9mm bullet barely misses the heart or aorta of an adversary, but the heart or aorta of that same person is creased by the slightly larger .40 or .45 caliber round, it can be said with conviction that bullet diameter, expanding or not, really does matter. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . Copyright 2023 Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. John I agree, the Browning Black Label in 380 ACP is a superb gun. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! I used to work in inner city and poor crime ridden areas when all I had was the 45. I still prefer the .45. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. During each tour I was personally involved multiple combat engagements. It did when it came to FMJ bullets. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! Mayo Clinic to stop the threat. George. Thats right George. A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. However, in early 2015 the door was cracked open, allowing them to choose Glock 19's (chambered in 9mm) instead of their larger counterpart. Its round is designed to not only kill the attacker but also to stop him in his tracks. With the 45 2 at most. Other human tissue in the body reacts differently. In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. Knock down power. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. I have yet to see this. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. Damage: 22. Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. As mentioned in the article, the terminal ballistics of the modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round but that is with modern 9mm JHP ammo. Just bless his little Prsident heart. They found that their guns wouldnt stop the insurgents charging at them, until seconds or minutes after the bullets entered their adversaries bodies. I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. That should be the only real factor considered. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. AT 500 fps a 230 grains projectile would only have 127 foot pounds of energy leaving the muzzle. Now I am a fan of 45s. sledgehammer. We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. All rights reserved. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. But thats a subject for another article. I preferred carrying them before things went bad for me. Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. When the. I'd like to see the science on that one. Thats my two cents for what its worth. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. How many decades are we going to have this debate? The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). Gramins was using a 13+1 capacity Glock 21 in .45 ACP. If the technology got better for one caliber, it got better for all of them!! At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. During the last 15 years in LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. Remember we started this country with every make and model of firearm known to man.Give our men our warriors the best.Let them choose the caliber they know better than anyone. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. I know some are going to maybe chuckle but when I want a deep concealed handgun, I go with my PF9 Keltec. A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. Small, light, and more rugged than a lot plastic guns. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. I know I prefer .45ACP. Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. Thank you. If we had had 45acp in the hands of the FBI in most every one of these complete inept foul ups they would likely have never happened and the debate would only be Glock or 1911 45 acp. Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. With civilians Mosher shootings occur within 7 yards thats 21 feet are closer usually closer. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. So in other words, Science is also getting a kick back just so the 9mm gets so called, scientific proof! A 9 is a great backup. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. I think it maybe a case of, its better to wound the enemy, than to kill him. They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. the legendary .50-cal. actually kills But thats me. The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. Creatine is an amino acid located mostly in your body's muscles as well as in the brain. Good article and very good to great comments. I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. Police usually shoot from a distance. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. I have been shooting for 50 years now. It stood there looking at me. It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. If you dont have an excellent chance against a large carnivore with it. The bear was shot in the head through the screen.it was a one shot stop but needed another round to finish him off. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? With practice almost anything is possible. Black Talon and Todays Best Self-Defense Ammo I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. A 35-45 psi Both are great calibers. The past 45 years never needed more than one shot. In the end of the nearly five-minute shootout, five FBI agents were wounded and twoJerry Dove and Benjamin Groganwere killed. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. Open the tools menu in your browser. Every round has its purpose. So they downvote actual biological functions here. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. Thats what I pack in the deep woods. If that were true, we would only have one size Shoe, Clothing Etc. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. The one that traveled the furthest was looking back over its shoulder and was hit in the muzzle. Because bullet strikes to the torso will not immediately incapacitate an adversary and will not knock him to the ground, police officers need to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. At 880 fps a 230 grains projectile has 395 foot pounds of muzzle energy. Missing it not an option. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. That meant that the tip didnt just bore straight through him, but rather that the whole length of the projectile rotated over and over through Scalises body, ripping a wider hole and distributing a bigger shock wave throughout his bones and tissue. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. I spend a great deal of time on the range. I have never shot a people. So youre that guy safe at home on the computer. The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? I imagine humans are the same. I was shot with a 45acp in my right leg. That much is true. Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. Damage: 62. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. 45 ACP Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. Black Talon .45 ACP is not the one-shot-stopping hammer that some people think it is. You're free to republish or share any of our articles (either in part or in full), which are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. So, is the 9mm the ultimate handgun around? Id use either! I doubt a .45 would have allowed that.also know a guy who took 10 shots of 9mm at close range in a robbery and survived and is healthy and surfs, shooter must have had terrible aim. Practice is key. I have small hands for a guy but I have no problems with accuracy. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. I dont have the time to read it. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. Of course shot placement is important. Following the incident, significant changes were made to the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore and the incident response training they received. I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. Not concerned with concealed carry. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. The objective of this study was to construct a Really late to the discussion. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. You do your failure drill. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. Web45 ACP Ammo | 45 ACP Ammo for Sale | Ammunition Depot 3/2/2023 ON SALE Ammunition Bulk Ammo Bulk 223 Ammo Bulk 9mm Ammo Bulk 45 ACP Ammo Bulk 380 Ammo Bulk 308 Ammo Bulk 7.62x39 Ammo Bulk 22 LR Ammo Bulk Pistol Ammo Bulk Rifle Ammo Bulk Shotgun Ammo Handgun Ammo 9mm Ammo 380 Ammo 45 ACP Ammo 38 Special cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. After reading comments from many veterans here, and from what ive seen on the streets, in a true life or death situation give me the largest slug possible. Lexipol. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. I recently bought a Sig P227 Tacops. Millenials and their bias arguments. .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. What that means is that handgun bullets, as opposed to the devastating wound channels rifle projectiles can cause, are only just poking little holes in people. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. I do like the capacity of the 9mm for in town carry and lighter weight than my Govt model 45s. I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. Heating effects, occurring mostly around 2.45 GHz (which is the frequency used in microwave ovens) Ionizing effects, which can damage human body and cells; Here is a picture of how the radiowaves penetrate the human body according to the frequency. The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. Riley, love your artical. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. And both my wife and my son HATE the Kahr (makes their hand hurt). But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. So, the answer is simple, right? For me the thing that has always solved this debate is simple. Liver problems can also be caused by a variety of factors that damage the liver, such as viruses, alcohol use and obesity. SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. The 45 is the preferred for close combat, Common sense will tell you that if you are being overrun! I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. The Human Torso Test. damage A tool yes but not a valid substitute. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. I have both, like them all, and carry them because rifles are hard to conceal! Meaning the shooter, where a second shot will go off up in the air. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. Most self-defense shootings take place inside 20 feet and are over in seconds; if Im out in public and shooting beyond that distance, itll probably be tough to sell as self-defense to a judge and/or jury anyway. And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. It's estimated that chronic kidney disease affects about one in seven American adults. I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. But the US never officially ratified these protocols, and is not officially bound by them. 45 ACP Plus: How to contact us. D.R. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. The rest of the argument as far as damage goes, should be common sense. What a joke! I would challenge anyone to shoot a 9mm against my 45 and, I promise my 45 will be the 9mm all day everyday. But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? If I put p++ in my 9 mm, its going to hurt like hell! If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. He was a deputy sheriff. People have died from hitting their head just right after slipping at their desk,kitchen. They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. I don't know about you, but my .45's seem to be plenty accurate, certainly as precise as any of my 9mm pistols. One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. Source: However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. Guns dont kill people. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. Im no expert but i know how it feels to be in a shoot out, first of all when it goes down you better have some kind of firearm i dont care if its a P shooter, 2nd the person will be placed in a situation where they will have to make a business decision when here a pop coming from you. But associates I worked with and against on jobs they all use one main gun to kill with the 9 mm with silencer. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. Physiology, Acid Base Balance 45 acp damage human body Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. Since doing some research on the new ammo for the .380 acp, Ive decided that 17-22 of penetration from Lehigh & Ruger Personal Defense rounds, I carry the Browning Black Label .380. 24 Round Magazine now only decreases reload time by 5% rather than 20% like before. The temporary cavity is the hole in the target that briefly expands after immediate impact, only to collapse a fraction of a second later. Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies Be Safe Out There. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. ACP What type of bullet is being fired? Since 1959 we have striven as a family-owned business to build a gun shop that is here to grow with your family. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. I prefer 45 revolvers. We look forward to serving you. I never miss. So its purpose is based on design. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. After hours of research, I ordered a Glock .357 sig. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. 9mm vs .45 ACP [Debate Finally Settled] - Pew Pew Tactical However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. ammo. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. Both are great bullets, but not really comparable.
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